You really have to give kudos to the government on this one. The Roth is working out pretty well so far (for them).
1. Prepay taxes on the gains as money moves from the traditional IRA into a Roth IRA.
2. Watch all gains vanish as the market crashes twice in the same decade.
3. The government still keeps the real prepaid taxes on those illusionary gains though. Perhaps keeps isn't quite the right word. I really mean to say that the government spent that incoming money as quickly as was humanly possible along with money it also borrows from our grandchildren and/or China. Wars and bailouts aren't cheap.
4. Brace for severe recession and/or depression. One reason to brace is that the government no longer has nearly as much prepaid taxes coming to them. How many people are prepaying taxes on stock market gains these days?
5. Lose banking job, lose construction job, lose low-tech manufacturing job, lose high-tech manufacturing job, and/or lose retail sales job. Take your pick.
6. Enter retirement. Sell underwater home. Live in a cardboard box. Withdraw a paltry tax-free sum from what's left of the Roth IRA each year. Of course, it probably wouldn't have been taxed much anyway. It isn't like cardboard box dwellers are in a high tax bracket.
Unhappy with your Roth? Just say never mind
You converted, only to see the stock market tank. Let's say you switched a $150,000 IRA to a Roth IRA in 2008 but the collapse in stock prices has since knocked the Roth's value down to $100,000. Because the tax is based on the IRA's value at the time of the conversion, you're facing a tax bill of $42,000 this April (assuming a 28% tax bracket).
By recharacterizing, you can shift the $100,000 back to a traditional IRA. If your IRA is still worth $100,000 when you convert again, you'll owe $28,000 in taxes, saving yourself a tidy 14 grand.
Just one catch.
You can recharacterize a conversion anytime up to the income tax filing deadline for the tax year of your conversion, including extensions. So if you converted in 2008, you can undo it as late as Oct. 15, 2009.
That really doesn't help those who converted their Nasdaq holdings in December of 1997 (or worse, those who converted in 2000). 1997 was the year the Roth IRA was introduced. The Nasdaq closed the year at 1,570.35. It now stands at 1,477.29.
For what it is worth, I never did convert. I pay my taxes on time but I've never really felt the need to prepay taxes early.
I'm sort of a worst-case planning guy though, as is probably fairly obvious by now. If I was best-case planning guy, I would have come up with a different name for my blog. Paradise of Prosperity?
Worst-case means I'll be broke later in life. Broke people tend to be in a lower tax bracket. It therefore wouldn't make much sense for me to prepay taxes when I am fairly well off just to avoid paying taxes when I become broke.
As a side note, the government is doing a fantastic job heading me down my worst-case retirement plan. The ultimate in timing would be "dying" just as I turn "dead" broke of course, thereby allowing me to maximize every last penny of savings. So far, so good! There is some risk the government will exceed even my own worst-case expectations though. As I have said in the past, the Illusion of Prosperity blog has been consistently too optimistic. I really would not want to hasten my own death just to keep the nest egg depletion rate properly balanced, lol. Nervous gallows humor for the win. Sigh.
It might seem like I am a pessimist to plan for worst-case. Oh contraire! When I plan for worst-case, everything becomes a pleasant surprise. That's a happy thing. Imagine opening a power bill expecting to see a huge number only to see a number slightly less huge? Euphoria. Well, you get the idea anyway.
If I do somehow find myself in a higher tax bracket later on in life because my investments have done so well, then I will have very little reason to complain. I put the odds of this miracle at somewhat less than 100% though. I am worst-case planning guy after all and I generally think of miracles as being somewhat rare.
Ten Economic Questions for 2025
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Here is a review of the Ten Economic Questions for 2024.
Below are my ten questions for 2025 (I've been doing this online every year
for 20 years!). These...
2 hours ago
6 comments:
Stag,
When I plan for worst-case, everything becomes a pleasant surprise.
And the opposite seems like it would hold true also - if people plan for the best-case, everything becomes a disappointing surprise. That's no fun.
My guess is that most don't plan at all. They simply hope. Recently they hope less. Soon, they will likely be hopeless.
What can most do now?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windfall_gain
Perhaps they should all buy timberland or wooded lots. Not that it will improve their actual financial situations. But imagine all the pleasant surprises that they will experience during the perfect storm.
Sweet! Another windfall!
And yet, and yet: I suspect that however poor I become I'll be facing higher tax rates later in life.
mab,
I'm drawn to the link within your link.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permanent_Income_Hypothesis
The permanent income hypothesis (PIH) is a theory of consumption that was developed by the American economist Milton Friedman. In its simplest form, PIH states that the choices made by consumers regarding their consumption patterns are determined not by current income but by their longer-term income expectations.
No wonder I'm a hoarder! I have less than ZERO longer-term income expectations. I have serious concerns that between future taxes and future inflation, that I'll be lucky if I can maintain a zero growth rate long-term, and not revert to something that looks a bit more 1970s-ish (or worse).
Too bad I couldn't embrace optimism. Although I would have lost 40% in the stock market by doing so, my "permanent income" expectations could remain permanently high. That would have allowed me to continue to buy a lot of crap I didn't really need. Oh well! I'd also be pointing out that history has shown that stocks ALWAYS outperform every other asset class over the long-term, in America anyway. I'd also point out that there has never been a better time to invest. The screaming bargain buying opportunity window has been open for almost 10 full years! Citigroup is having a 95% off sale and Circuit City's stock screams...well, um, I'm not sure what it screams but surely it is within 10 cents of the bottom! That's guaranteed (since it now trades at 10 cents per share)! Lucky us!
dearieme,
And yet, and yet: I suspect that however poor I become I'll be facing higher tax rates later in life.
That's where worst-case calculus comes in.
In order for government revenue to remain constant, taxes must eventually approach infinity as income approaches zero.
Let's say the government taxes a $50,000 salary at 10%. That gives them $5,000. One might argue I'm being rather generous here.
Let's say that salary drops to $5,000 because your employer wishes to pay you the same as he pays Chinese workers. The government will still be doing fine if it increases the tax rate to 100% and somehow miraculously convinces you to keep working.
Now let's say that the salary drops to $0. Even an infinite tax rate can't work, so therefore the government will need to come in and confiscate your vast toilet paper hoard.
Just a theory of course.
Stag,
The PIH is at end game for the monetarists and Keynesians.
Here's how they see it. We have a CONsumer eCONomy. The best CONsumers are those that have permanent incomes. Mass retirement of baby boomers is therefore a big eCONomic bummer. The solution - swindle the boomers out of their money and their ability to retire. Force the boomers to seek permanent incomes. A win win. Permanent incomes and a strong eCONomy. Woohoo!
Keynes thought that savings should be euthanized. That seems so wrong to me. Why don't we just euthanize liberty, or property rights, or retirement, or free time, or intellectual honesty, or savings, or peace of mind, or quality?
You say there are no jobs? No problem, get your sledge hammer. Our eCONommy needs you to go on that prosperity generating spree.
mab,
Why don't we just euthanize liberty, or property rights, or retirement, or free time, or intellectual honesty, or savings, or peace of mind, or quality?
My peace of mind was successfully euthanized in 2004. I highly recommend the procedure. I no longer suffer from the absence of mental stress or anxiety.
In fact, I think I've been permanently cured!
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